
July 22, 2021
#523: Dennis McKenna — The Depths of Ayahuasca: 500+ Sessions | The Tim Ferriss Show
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Key Takeaways
- “The deeper you go in this, the stranger and more fascinating it all becomes” – Tim Ferriss speaking on psychedelics
- “Science properly pursued only deepens the mystery. Remember how little you know” – Dennis McKenna
- Ethnopharmacology defined by McKenna: the interdisciplinary scientific investigation of biologically active substances used or observed by humans in traditional society
- Ayahuasca can be brewed in a variety of methods leaving plenty of opportunity for customized medical solutions
- Single-use can apply a reset to your mental wellness, psychology, and perspective from the experience
- Sustained use can change the chemical properties of the brain and body for the better
- Long term effect on improved and sustained serotonin levels in the brain
- Improved on dangerous behavioral pathologies like addiction & depression
- Important to have a ritual context and intent behind ayahuasca usage
- McKenna Academy of Natural Philosophy – Non-profit organization for continued education on the topic
Intro
- Dennis McKenna (@DennisMcKenna4) is a well-renowned ethnopharmacologist with a focus on the therapeutic uses of psychedelic medicines. In this episode, Dennis and Tim discuss ayahuasca at a scientific and intimate level while also analyzing the current state of science and ethnopharmacology.
- Host: Tim Ferriss (@tferriss)
- Important books & links:
- The Brotherhood of the Screaming Abyss by Dennis McKenna
- The Teachings of Don Juan by Carlos Castaneda
- Ethnopharmacologic Search for Psychoactive Drugs (Vol. 1 & 2): 50 Years of Research by Dennis McKenna
- McKenna Academy of Natural Philosophy
Richard Evans Schultes
- The Brotherhood of the Screaming Abyss by Dennis McKenna
- McKenna describes his mentorship experience with Richard Evans Schultes in a segment of this book
- Schultes was known as the ‘father of ethnobotany’
- the scientific study of a people concerning plants in their medical and religious practices
- Schultes encouraged McKenna to study more before exploring Virola in the Amazon:
- Organic Chemistry
- Taxonomy – Chose grass systematics
- The first time they met was an awkward introduction, Schultes was hugging an air conditioning unit in a dark room
Ethnopharmacology
- Books that framed McKenna’s interests in science:
- The Teachings of Don Juan by Carlos Castaneda
- Made it clear that there was a body of knowledge around ethnopharmacology
- Ethnopharmacologic Search for Psychoactive Drugs by unidentified author
- Made him aware of the involvement chemistry and biology have in ethnopharmacology
- Ethnopharmacologic Search for Psychoactive Drugs (Vol. 1 & 2): 50 Years of Research by Dennis McKenna where he gives the current state of the original research
- The Teachings of Don Juan by Carlos Castaneda
- Ethnopharmacology defined by McKenna: the interdisciplinary scientific investigation of biologically active substances used or observed by humans in traditional society
- Many common drugs like Aspirin have their origin in this natural disciplinary
Ayahuasca
- Ayahuasca – a psychedelic and entheogenic brew commonly made out of the Banisteriopsis caapi vine, and the Psychotria viridis shrub
- Basic ayahuasca chemistry and pharmacology:
- Harmine – alkaloid, strong MAO (Monoamine Oxidase) inhibitor stimulating neurogenesis
- Tetrahydroharmine – MAO inhibitor and serotonin inhibitor
- Long term effect on improved and sustained serotonin levels in the brain
- Improved on dangerous behavioral pathologies like addiction & depression
- Different brews have different formulations with various ingredients resulting in complex experiences
- The variety should be helpful in customizing medical solutions
- Ayahuasca has the potential to solve different types of problems
- Single-use can apply a reset to your mental wellness, psychology, and perspective from the experience
- Sustained use can change the chemical properties of the brain and body for the better
- It’s often part of ceremony and sacrament in syncretic religions
Brugmansia
- Brugmansia: a very dangerous plant. It’s toxic and produces a sense of delirium (true hallucinogen rather than psychedelic)
- Used as a ‘date rape’ drug commonly in Brazil and Columbia
- People appear totally normal but can be extremely manipulated
- Can be found in ayahuasca brews. If you have a dry mouth, you are dealing with a dangerous brew with likely malintent by the practitioner
- Associated with brujería – black magic or sorcery
Cultural Impact
- Traditional use of ayahuasca has changed due to outside cultural influences
- In the nature of recreation, people want their money’s worth as a tourist
- This has had mixed effects: its usage in tourism certainly increases beneficial awareness and medical opportunity but puts pressure on market pricing and overharvesting
- Traditionally it was the shaman that used ayahuasca, not the ordinary people unless there was a medical exception. The experience and information used to be passed down.
McKenna Personal Ayahuasca Experiences
- McKenna has had over 500+ ayahuasca experiences
- Many people think a single experience can change your life. Why has McKenna used ayahuasca so many times?
- Fostered the experiences with many people, always participated with them
- Feels somewhat guilty for influencing the popularity of ayahuasca tourism
- Continues to learn something new with every experience
- “A bottomless well of things to be thought about. Keep listening” – Dennis McKenna
- Habitual users of ayahuasca seem to slow mental depreciation with aging
- Fostered the experiences with many people, always participated with them
- Negative experiences:
- Important to have a ritual context and intent behind usage to reduce the chance of a negative experience
- Having a practitioner can keep you on track and can help you avoid negative experiences, moderate the space
- Avoid it if you have a family history of schizophrenia
- Integration: Troubles with maintaining expectations in the real world compared to your experience realized during your psychedelic usage
McKenna Academy of Natural Philosophy
- McKenna Academy of Natural Philosophy: Non-profit organization intended to be a physical place in South America to hold retreats and conferences to explore natural philosophy
- Natural philosophy: what science used to be before it became quantitative and reductionist, there are other ways of knowing natural truth
- “Science can understand segments of reality but doesn’t fit the whole picture” – Dennis McKenna
- “Science properly pursued only deepens the mystery” – Dennis McKenna
- Academy projects:
- Knowledge preservation project – focus on documentation and digitization of information
- Create an herbarium – a collection of preserved plants for scientific study
- Develop an ethnobotany course
- Virtual symposium on the Stoned Ape Theory
Amazon
- 80,000 – 90,000 unique plant species in the Amazon
- 10% have been properly studied, 1% have been thoroughly investigated
- Incredible potential for natural drug discovery
- The McKenna academy wants indigenous people involved and recognized in the continued plant research in the region