July 22, 2021

#523: Dennis McKenna — The Depths of Ayahuasca: 500+ Sessions | The Tim Ferriss Show

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Key Takeaways

• “The deeper you go in this, the stranger and more fascinating it all becomes” – Tim Ferriss speaking on psychedelics
• “Science properly pursued only deepens the mystery. Remember how little you know” – Dennis McKenna
• Ethnopharmacology defined by McKenna: the interdisciplinary scientific investigation of biologically active substances used or observed by humans in traditional society
• Ayahuasca can be brewed in a variety of methods leaving plenty of opportunity for customized medical solutions
  • Single-use can apply a reset to your mental wellness, psychology, and perspective from the experience
  • Sustained use can change the chemical properties of the brain and body for the better
    • Long term effect on improved and sustained serotonin levels in the brain
    • Improved on dangerous behavioral pathologies like addiction & depression
  • Important to have a ritual context and intent behind ayahuasca usage
• McKenna Academy of Natural Philosophy – Non-profit organization for continued education on the topic

Intro

• Dennis McKenna (@DennisMcKenna4) is a well-renowned ethnopharmacologist with a focus on the therapeutic uses of psychedelic medicines. In this episode, Dennis and Tim discuss ayahuasca at a scientific and intimate level while also analyzing the current state of science and ethnopharmacology.
• Host: Tim Ferriss (@tferriss)
• Important books & links:
  • The Brotherhood of the Screaming Abyss by Dennis McKenna
  • The Teachings of Don Juan by Carlos Castaneda
  • Ethnopharmacologic Search for Psychoactive Drugs (Vol. 1 & 2): 50 Years of Research by Dennis McKenna
  • McKenna Academy of Natural Philosophy

Richard Evans Schultes

• The Brotherhood of the Screaming Abyss by Dennis McKenna
  • McKenna describes his mentorship experience with Richard Evans Schultes in a segment of this book
• Schultes was known as the ‘father of ethnobotany’
  • the scientific study of a people concerning plants in their medical and religious practices
• Schultes encouraged McKenna to study more before exploring Virola in the Amazon:
  • Organic Chemistry
  • Taxonomy – Chose grass systematics
• The first time they met was an awkward introduction, Schultes was hugging an air conditioning unit in a dark room

Ethnopharmacology

• Books that framed McKenna’s interests in science:
  • The Teachings of Don Juan by Carlos Castaneda
    • Made it clear that there was a body of knowledge around ethnopharmacology
  • Ethnopharmacologic Search for Psychoactive Drugs by unidentified author
    • Made him aware of the involvement chemistry and biology have in ethnopharmacology
    • Ethnopharmacologic Search for Psychoactive Drugs (Vol. 1 & 2): 50 Years of Research by Dennis McKenna where he gives the current state of the original research
• Ethnopharmacology defined by McKenna: the interdisciplinary scientific investigation of biologically active substances used or observed by humans in traditional society
  • Many common drugs like Aspirin have their origin in this natural disciplinary

Ayahuasca

• Ayahuasca – a psychedelic and entheogenic brew commonly made out of the Banisteriopsis caapi vine, and the Psychotria viridis shrub
• Basic ayahuasca chemistry and pharmacology:
  • Harmine – alkaloid, strong MAO (Monoamine Oxidase) inhibitor stimulating neurogenesis
  • Tetrahydroharmine – MAO inhibitor and serotonin inhibitor
    • Long term effect on improved and sustained serotonin levels in the brain
    • Improved on dangerous behavioral pathologies like addiction & depression
  • Different brews have different formulations with various ingredients resulting in complex experiences
    • The variety should be helpful in customizing medical solutions
• Ayahuasca has the potential to solve different types of problems
  • Single-use can apply a reset to your mental wellness, psychology, and perspective from the experience
  • Sustained use can change the chemical properties of the brain and body for the better
• It’s often part of ceremony and sacrament in syncretic religions

Brugmansia

• Brugmansia: a very dangerous plant. It’s toxic and produces a sense of delirium (true hallucinogen rather than psychedelic)
  • Used as a ‘date rape’ drug commonly in Brazil and Columbia
  • People appear totally normal but can be extremely manipulated
  • Can be found in ayahuasca brews. If you have a dry mouth, you are dealing with a dangerous brew with likely malintent by the practitioner
• Associated with brujería – black magic or sorcery

Cultural Impact

• Traditional use of ayahuasca has changed due to outside cultural influences
  • In the nature of recreation, people want their money’s worth as a tourist
  • This has had mixed effects: its usage in tourism certainly increases beneficial awareness and medical opportunity but puts pressure on market pricing and overharvesting
• Traditionally it was the shaman that used ayahuasca, not the ordinary people unless there was a medical exception. The experience and information used to be passed down.

McKenna Personal Ayahuasca Experiences

• McKenna has had over 500+ ayahuasca experiences
• Many people think a single experience can change your life. Why has McKenna used ayahuasca so many times?
  • Fostered the experiences with many people, always participated with them
    • Feels somewhat guilty for influencing the popularity of ayahuasca tourism
  • Continues to learn something new with every experience
    • “A bottomless well of things to be thought about. Keep listening” – Dennis McKenna
  • Habitual users of ayahuasca seem to slow mental depreciation with aging
• Negative experiences:
  • Important to have a ritual context and intent behind usage to reduce the chance of a negative experience
  • Having a practitioner can keep you on track and can help you avoid negative experiences, moderate the space
  • Avoid it if you have a family history of schizophrenia
  • Integration: Troubles with maintaining expectations in the real world compared to your experience realized during your psychedelic usage

McKenna Academy of Natural Philosophy

• McKenna Academy of Natural Philosophy: Non-profit organization intended to be a physical place in South America to hold retreats and conferences to explore natural philosophy
• Natural philosophy: what science used to be before it became quantitative and reductionist, there are other ways of knowing natural truth
  • “Science can understand segments of reality but doesn’t fit the whole picture” – Dennis McKenna
  • “Science properly pursued only deepens the mystery” – Dennis McKenna
• Academy projects:
  • Knowledge preservation project – focus on documentation and digitization of information
  • Create an herbarium – a collection of preserved plants for scientific study
  • Develop an ethnobotany course
  • Virtual symposium on the Stoned Ape Theory

Amazon

• 80,000 – 90,000 unique plant species in the Amazon
  • 10% have been properly studied, 1% have been thoroughly investigated
  • Incredible potential for natural drug discovery
• The McKenna academy wants indigenous people involved and recognized in the continued plant research in the region

Tim Ferriss Show : ayahuasca, health, life, psychedelics, science
Notes By Drew Waterstreet