
October 4, 2018
The Joe Rogan Experience #1178 – Dr. Rhonda Patrick
Intro
- Check out these Podcast Notes from Rhonda’s last appearance on Joe’s podcast
BPA
- Rhonda’s son is 13 months old,
- She’s very cautious about exposing him to any BPA in plastic
- Boiling water, and putting it in plastic, increases the amount of BPA that leeches into the water 55 fold
- Animal studies have shown that BPA exposure has negative consequences on the endocrine system, and these negative consequences can be passed to multiple generations
- A single exposure to BPA can disrupt insulin sensitivity
- Typically we excrete BPA through urine and sweat
- While pregnant, Rhonda made sure not to consume any water from plastic bottles due to the concern of exposing her son to BPA
- If you keep using a bottle with BPA, as the bottle ages, more BPA leeches out in the liquid
- This includes baby bottles, as well as plastic water bottles
BPA
- Joe has an 8 and 10 year old
- “If you know how to be happy, your kids will take on your behavior patterns”
- Living in a major metropolitan area, like NYC, can shorten your life from the air pollution
- There are compounds in air pollution, like benzyne, which are carcinogens
- Exposure to air pollution can increase the risk of stroke, heart attack, and Alzheimer’s disease
- One study compared the happiness of runners after going for a run in nature vs. a metropolitan area
- Runners who ran in nature were far happier after their run
- You also have to be mindful of brake dust pollution
The Carnivore Diet
- “The diet could be dangerous without any long term evidence or scientific studies’
- The diet does seem to improve autoimmune disorders
- Why does it work?
- Calorie restriction and fasting have been shown to allow for significant improvements in autoimmune diseases
- People eat less when they eat a high protein diet
- You have less insulin production, which changes your leptin and ghrelin levels (the satiety and hunger hormones, respectively), which causes you to eat less
- Studies show that when people are given the same food every single day, naturally they start to eat less, and calorie restrict themselves
- People eat less when they eat a high protein diet
- It replenishes the immune system through apoptosis
- While fasting, or just calorie restricting to very low levels, entire cells are cleared away through a process known as apoptosis
- Calorie restriction and fasting have been shown to allow for significant improvements in autoimmune diseases
- During a 72 hour fast, animal studies show you can clear away about 30% of the immune system and replenish it with brand new healthy immune cells
- Organs shrink during the fasting, and then re-expand when you eat
- Autoimmune cells may be selectively killed off first, and replenished with non-autoimmune cells
- It produces changes in the microbiome
- The microbiome has been linked to autoimmunity in things like arthritis and multiple sclerosis (MS)
- One study showed that when people with MS fasted every other day for 7 days, they experienced profound changes in the gut microbiome
- They grew gut bacteria which produce more butyrate (this is a short chain fatty acid which gut cells love – it’s good for them), which helps the immune system produce for T-regulatory cells
- The microbiome has been linked to autoimmunity in things like arthritis and multiple sclerosis (MS)
- Why does it work?
- There are negative changes, in terms of the gut microbiome that occur when following a carnivore diet
- People that go from a high fiber, to a high protein (or carnviore diet), will tend create an environment in the gut that allows for the presence of more bacteria that ferment amino acids (like putrefactive bacteria)
- Why is this not desirable? – Some species of putrefactive bacteria have been linked to colon cancer
- These bacteria create genotoxic agents known as putracine and cadaverine which damage the DNA inside colon cells
- By eating fiber/vegetables along with meat/protein – this promotes the growth of lactic acid producing bacteria (bifiodo, lactobacilius etc.) , which limits limits the growth of putrefactive bacteria
- Why is this not desirable? – Some species of putrefactive bacteria have been linked to colon cancer
- People that go from a high fiber, to a high protein (or carnviore diet), will tend create an environment in the gut that allows for the presence of more bacteria that ferment amino acids (like putrefactive bacteria)
- There are other ways to cure or help autoimmune issues, without going on such a restrictive diet
- Do a prolonged fast 1x a quarter, depending on how severe the issues are
- Do a fasting mimicking diet (FMD) once per month
- For more on a FMD, check out these Podcast Notes
- One study showed that going on a ketogenic diet for three months, also improved symptoms of autoimmunity
- “At the end of the day, there’s no data” – Going on a carnivore diet may be harmful long term
More of Rhonda’s Concerns with the Carnivore Diet
- Rhonda has concerns about micronutrients (check out these Podcast Notes where Rhonda talks more about micronutrients)
- Micronutrients (30 particular vitamins and minerals) are essential
- They run our metabolism, are involved in making neurotransmitters, etc.
- 22% of all enzymes in your body require a micronutrient to function
- You don’t make micronutrients in your body, so you have to get them from your diet
- How are RDAs of micronutrients set?
- First, the EAR (estimated average intake) is looked at – you look at a given population, and determine how much of a given micronutrient the population needs so that 50% of the population has adequate levels
- The RDA is set from that, 2 standard deviations above
- For each micronutrient it’s different
- “RDAs are set to prevent acute disease, but what about promoting optimal health”
- Many micronutrients are much more concentrated, and easy to get, from plants
- The biggest one of concern is vitamin C
- Vitamin C is important for making collagen, converting dopamine to norepinepherine (important for the fight or flight response), and is an antioxidant
- Scurvy happens when you don’t have enough vitamin C for collagen production (this is thought to be about only 10mg/day – it doesn’t take much)
- So people on a carnivore diet are probably getting enough Vitamin C to prevent scurvy. but perhaps not enough to cover all the other things vitamin C is required for
- Vitamin C has two forms – ascorbic acid (the reduced form – aka the antioxidant) and an oxidized form (dehydroascorbic acid)
- The RDA for vitamin C is 90 mg/day for men and 75 mg/day for women
- It’s been shown in guinea pigs, there are biological differences (even 10 fold) into how much vitamin C they required
- Vitamin C is important for making collagen, converting dopamine to norepinepherine (important for the fight or flight response), and is an antioxidant
- Vitamin E is also a concern
- Vitamin E helps recycle vitamin C and vice versa
- It’s an antioxidant, but is also important for maintaining cell integrity – it’s located inside the cell membrane and prevents normal oxidative processes from happening there
- The RDA is 15 mg
- Nuts are the best source (almonds) of vitamin E, and sardines
- Folate too…
- Folate plays an important role in making new DNA
- So low levels of folate, can lead to DNA damage – this is very hard to measure, and you don’t even know it’s happening
- Folate plays an important role in making new DNA
- Magnesium
- Enzymes to repair DNA damage require magnesium
- Beef liver is a great source of magnesium
- The biggest one of concern is vitamin C
- If you lack micronutrients…
- There are enzymes that are required to prevent and repair DNA damage, and then there are enzymes that require a micronutrient to prevent short term disease
- If there’s only so much of a micronutrient around, it will be used for the latter
- Micronutrients (30 particular vitamins and minerals) are essential
- What is you just ate a bunch of organ meat to get the micronutrients you’d be missing from vegetables?
- You can do it – but it’s difficult, and most people probably won’t do it
- By not eating, vegetables, you’re missing out on key fiber that the gut needs
- “We evolved eating plants”
- There’s all these other things present in plants that people following a carnivore diet are missing out on – falvonoids, polyphenols, phytochemicals, etc.
- You’re missing out on SULFORAPHANE
- Broccolli sprouts are the biggest source, but it’s also present in brussel sprouts
- Sulforaphane activates a variety of enzymes which help get rid of potentially harmful compounds in the body
- Humans given sulforophane extract show an increase of glutathione (a master antioxidant) in the brain – it plays a huge role in preventing brain aging
- Sulforaphane has been found to improve symptoms of autism
- There are literally so many beneficial things that come from eating vegetables – too many to mention
- “Why would you want to eliminate a massive source of bioavailable nutrients” – Joe
Fasting and the FMD
- Dr. Valter Longo has shown that fasting prior to chemotherapy allows cancer cells to be much more prone to cell death
- Why? – Healthy cells increase their stress response pathways when you’re fasting (more heat shock proteins, more antioxidants etc.), and cancer cells can’t do this
- Therefore, healthy cells are more resilient to the cancer treatment
- Once Rhonda has stopped breast feeding her son, she plans to start regularly doing some long term fasts (2 days minimum)
The Nocebo Effect is Real
- Genetics determine if you are likely to experience a placebo effect
- The gene that is important in determining whether you will experience placebo vs. nocebo, also controls the degradation of dopamine
- So people who are more likely to experience a placebo response, have more dopamine in the brain
- People with less dopamine, are more likely to experience the nocebo response
- The gene SNP is called COMT
- Gene SNPs are single nucleotide polymorhisms – it’s a slight change in the sequence of DNA in a certain gene makes it function a little differently
- The gene that is important in determining whether you will experience placebo vs. nocebo, also controls the degradation of dopamine
- You can increase serotonin with 5-HTP and L-Tryptophan (which converts to 5-HTP), but is there anything that increases dopamine?
- Fish oil (Rhonda recommends this brand) increase dopamine in the prefrontal cortex
- Some schizophrenics are prescribed a very high dose (3-6 grams a day) of fish oil because their dopamine is lower in the prefrontal cortex, which is associated with he negative symptoms of schizophrenia
- Rhonda takes capsulized fish oil from a friend who makes it in Norway – she takes 5-6 grams a day (6 pills for her)
- It’s not available in the US yet
- Joe take’s Carlson’s fish oil – he takes 3 tbsp.a day (not sure of dose)
- Fish oil (Rhonda recommends this brand) increase dopamine in the prefrontal cortex
The Ketogenic Diet
- Joe is favorable of it, but he eats too much meat (elk) to stay in ketosis
- Joe asks if exogenous ketones (aka exogenous BHB (beta-hydroxybutyrate)) are beneficial for the gut in any way, since butyrate is good for the gut
- The same thing with being in ketosis, you’ll have BHB molecules in your blood
- If you aren’t familiar with the ketogenic diet, long story short, your body converts the fat you eat (and stored body fat) into ketones (aka BHB)
- Short answer – we don’t know how similar BHB is to butyrate, so it’s tough to say
- Exogenous Ketone Supplements
- Joe uses Kegenix
- Rhonda has tried the ketone ester from HVMN
- She experienced a decrease in anxiety (it got her to a blood ketone level of about 4.5 mmol in about an hour) and a feeling of “being present”
- Perhaps the glucose in her brain is being spared for other things besides “worrying”
- Sulforaphane also does this for her
- Joe suggests the perfect pre podcast meal – the HVMN ketone ester and a salad contain broccoli sprouts (which are loaded with sulforaphane)
- She’ll often take it before doing a podcast, or a big talk
- It lowers her blood sugar levels pretty dramatically, so once the ketones ware off (after a couple of hours) she crashes, since she doesn’t follow a ketogenic diet regularly
- If she was already in ketosis, this wouldn’t happen
- Perhaps the crash could also be mitigated by consuming the HVMN with a higher carb meal
- She experienced a decrease in anxiety (it got her to a blood ketone level of about 4.5 mmol in about an hour) and a feeling of “being present”
More on Sulforaphane and Broccoli Sprouts
- To grow your own broccoli sprouts (which are high in sulforphane) use this kit with these seeds
- Brussel sprouts also contain sulforaphane
- Freezing your broccoli sprouts increases the sulforaphane content
- You can’t cook the sprouts – the enzyme that converts the precursor into active sulforaphane is heat sensitive
- You can put mustard seed powder on brussel sprouts, sauteed kale, or broccoli sprouts to increase the absorption of sulforaphane
- The mustard powder has the active enzyme that converts the precursor in the sprouts/kale into sulforophane
- Avamacol – this is a sulforaphane like supplement
- “The best in the US”
- Rhonda says Prostaphane is better, but it’s hard to get in the US (it’s made in France)
- Rhonda has been taking 3 pills/day, each pill is 10mg with food
Alzheimer’s Disease
- There’s a gene that increases the risk for Alzheimer’s Disease if you have one copy of it (ApoE4)
- You get 2 copies of every gene – 1 from mom, 1 from dad
- 1 copy of this ApoE4 increase the risk 2-3 fold, 2 copies increases the risk 10-15 fold
- The gene also increases the chances of a poor outcome if you have any kind of traumatic brain injury (TBI)
- Sleep is one of the ways you clear away amyloid plaques (which develop and cause dementia) in the brain
- During sleep, your brain swells, and you squirt cerebral spinal fluid into the brain which clears out amyloid plaques and other junk
- “If you have ApoE4. but you’re getting good quality sleep, you have the same risk as someone who doesn’t have APOE4”
- You also clear out amyloid plaques through an APOE mediated mechanism
- APOE4 does it 20 fold less efficiently
- People with ApoE 4 will benefit from eating fish
- DHA (in fish oil and fish) plays an important role in enhancing amyloid clearance, decreasing tau tangles, and regulating glucose uptake into the brain
- Tau tangles form inside of neurons and disrupt microtubule transport (the neuron’s system for transporting fatty acids to the synapse)
- Rhonda advises to consume DHA supplements in the phospholipid form for increase absorption
- Fish contains DHA in the phospholipid form, but it’s even more abundant in fish roe (eggs) (30-70% of DHA found in the roe is in phospholipid form)
- Rhonda orders salmon roe
- They often have flying fish roe in Asian grocery stores
- Fish oil is DHA is tryglyceride form – this is a close second to the phospholipid form, you just need more of it in a sense
- Amyloid plaques form outside neurons in the extracellular space and can disrupt synapse formation
- Why do they form? – A protective mechanism against viral, bacterial infections
- Can you consume too much fish oil?
- Be careful of oxidized fish oil (this happens if it’s too old)
Niacin and NAD
- Rhonda doesn’t supplement with niacin
- It’s been shown to lower LDL-C
- Niacin is a precursor for NAD (which you can increase during fasting)
- Joe takes Elysium (Podcast10 for 10% off)
- Rhonda stopped taking it while breast feeding, she was taking 250 mg/day previously
The Sauna
- Is there a difference between infrared and standard?
- Much of the scientific studies detailing the benefits involve the dry sauna
- Rhonda thinks the standard saunas are better, because they get hotter (and hotter quicker), which allow you to produce more heat shock proteins (HSPs) and get more of the benefits
- The real benefits come when you get to 180 degrees
- 180 degrees for 20 minutes is the sweet spot
- One study showed sauna use 4-7 times a week improved cardiovascular related mortality by 50% (and Alzheimer’s Disease risk is reduced by 67%)
- 3-4x a week, this improved by 24%
- Even with one sauna session, blood pressure improves, C-reactive proteins (an inflammatory biomarker) drops, and vascular compliance increases
- Frequent sauna use increases mitochondrial biogenesis and allows for improvements in mitochondrial function
- Using the sauna before a workout has been shown to reduce DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) – they don’t specify for how long to use the sauna pre workout
- Even a single sauna treatment has been found to improve depressive symptoms
- Hyperthermia (and exercise) activates IL-6 (it’s an inflammatory cytokine) like crazy
- The greater the production of IL-6, the greater the reduction in depressive symptoms
- This is the same thing released from muscle tissue after exercise
- In response to this, the body has an anti-inflammatory effect
- Giving people NSAIDS (nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory agents) prior to a workout, blunts IL-6 production, and many of the benefits of exercise are negated (like improved insulin sensitivity)
- For more on this check out these Podcast Notes
- There are studies that show hot yoga improves depressive symptoms
- Heat stress causes the release of beta-endorphins in the brain (same with exercise)
- Dynorphin is upregulated during heat stress
- Dynorphin serves to cool you down
- It’s is responsible for what one might call, a dizziness feeling, at the tail end of a sauna session – that feeling of “oh god, I have to get out”
- Dynorphin binds to kapa opioid receptors in the brain
- This causes a feedback response in other opioid receptors in the brain (mu opioid receptors) which bind to beta endorphins
- Once your are past the dizziness/dysphoric feeling from dynorphin release, you feel really good
- Why? – More mu opioid receptors are binding to beta endorphins
- This explains the lasting “feel good” effects from sauna use through
The Float Tank
- Joe has one in his studio, he tries to do it 2-3 times a week
- He’ll often do it in the morning, sometimes for 2 hours
Random Yet Important
- Exercise has been shown to change the microbiome in a positive way independent of diet
- Fasting does the same thing
- Joe gets his blood checked every 6 months
- 300 grams of brussel sprouts a day increased blood glutathione plasma levels by 1.4 fold